{"id":47935,"date":"2024-01-15T17:56:48","date_gmt":"2024-01-15T17:56:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/?p=47935"},"modified":"2024-01-15T17:56:48","modified_gmt":"2024-01-15T17:56:48","slug":"ai-translation-of-modern-greek-once-more","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/2024\/01\/15\/ai-translation-of-modern-greek-once-more\/","title":{"rendered":"AI Translation of modern Greek once more"},"content":{"rendered":"

In my last two posts here<\/a> and here<\/a>, I looked at AI and other translations of the following passage from Ch. Stergioulis’ modern Greek translation of the “Life of St Nicholas” by Methodius, Archbishop of Constantinople (the “Methodius ad Theodorum”:<\/p>\n

\n

3. \u039a\u03b1\u03c4\u03b1\u03b3\u03cc\u03c4\u03b1\u03bd \u03bf \u039d\u03b9\u03ba\u03cc\u03bb\u03b1\u03bf\u03c2 \u03b1\u03c0\u03cc \u03c4\u03b1 \u03a0\u03ac\u03c4\u03b1\u03c1\u03b1, \u03c0\u03cc\u03bb\u03b7 \u03c4\u03b7\u03c2 \u03b5\u03c0\u03b1\u03c1\u03c7\u03af\u03b1\u03c2 \u03c4\u03c9\u03bd \u039b\u03c5\u03ba\u03af\u03c9\u03bd, \u03b7 \u03bf\u03c0\u03bf\u03af\u03b1 \u03b5\u03ba\u03b5\u03af\u03bd\u03b7 \u03c4\u03b7\u03bd \u03b5\u03c0\u03bf\u03c7\u03ae (\u03c4\u03bf\u03c5 \u03b1\u03b3\u03af\u03bf\u03c5 \u039d\u03b9\u03ba\u03bf\u03bb\u03ac\u03bf\u03c5) \u03b5\u03af\u03c7\u03b5 \u03b1\u03c1\u03ba\u03b5\u03c4\u03bf\u03cd\u03c2 \u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03bf\u03af\u03ba\u03bf\u03c5\u03c2. \u03a4\u03ce\u03c1\u03b1 \u03cc\u03bc\u03c9\u03c2 \u03bc\u03bf\u03b9\u03ac\u03b6\u03b5\u03b9 \u03c0\u03b5\u03c1\u03b9\u03c3\u03c3\u03cc\u03c4\u03b5\u03c1\u03bf \u03bc\u03b5 \u03ba\u03ce\u03bc\u03b7 \u03c0\u03b1\u03c1\u03ac \u03bc\u03b5 \u03c0\u03cc\u03bb\u03b714<\/sup>. \u039a\u03b9 \u03b1\u03c5\u03c4\u03cc \u03c0\u03b1\u03b8\u03b1\u03af\u03bd\u03bf\u03c5\u03bd \u03c0\u03bf\u03bb\u03c5\u03c4\u03c1\u03cc\u03c0\u03c9\u03c2 \u03bf\u03b9 \u03c0\u03cc\u03bb\u03b5\u03b9\u03c2-\u03c0\u03b1\u03c1\u03b1\u03ba\u03bc\u03ac\u03b6\u03bf\u03c5\u03bd \u03ba\u03b1\u03b9 \u03bf\u03b9 \u03ba\u03ac\u03c4\u03bf\u03b9\u03ba\u03bf\u03af \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5\u03c2 \u03bc\u03b5\u03c4\u03b1\u03bd\u03b1\u03c3\u03c4\u03b5\u03cd\u03bf\u03c5\u03bd-\u03b5\u03be\u03b1\u03b9\u03c4\u03af\u03b1\u03c2 \u03c4\u03c9\u03bd \u03b1\u03bc\u03ad\u03c4\u03c1\u03b7\u03c4\u03c9\u03bd \u03ba\u03c1\u03b9\u03bc\u03ac\u03c4\u03c9\u03bd \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5\u03c2 \u03ad\u03bd\u03b1\u03bd\u03c4\u03b9 \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5 \u03b8\u03b5\u03bf\u03cd. \u0388\u03c4\u03c3\u03b9 \u03bb\u03bf\u03b9\u03c0\u03cc\u03bd \u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03b1\u03bd\u03bf\u03bf\u03cd\u03bc\u03b5 \u03ba\u03b1\u03b9 \u03b1\u03c5\u03c4\u03cc \u03c0\u03bf\u03c5 \u03c3\u03c5\u03bd\u03b7\u03b8\u03af\u03b6\u03bf\u03c5\u03bc\u03b5 \u03bd\u03b1 \u03b3\u03c1\u03ac\u03c6\u03bf\u03c5\u03bc\u03b5, \u03cc\u03c4\u03b9 \u03b4\u03b7\u03bb\u03b1\u03b4\u03ae \u03bf\u03b9 \u03c0\u03cc\u03bb\u03b5\u03b9\u03c2 \u03c4\u03b9\u03bc\u03c9\u03c1\u03bf\u03cd\u03bd\u03c4\u03b1\u03b9 \u03b3\u03b9\u03b1 \u03c4\u03b9\u03c2 \u03b1\u03bc\u03b1\u03c1\u03c4\u03af\u03b5\u03c2 \u03c4\u03c9\u03bd \u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03bf\u03af\u03ba\u03c9\u03bd \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5\u03c215<\/sup>. \u0392\u03c1\u03af\u03c3\u03ba\u03b5\u03c4\u03b1\u03b9 \u03b4\u03b7\u03bb\u03b1\u03b4\u03ae, \u03b5\u03ba\u03b5\u03af \u03ba\u03bf\u03bd\u03c4\u03ac \u03c4\u03cc\u03c0\u03bf\u03c2 \u03c0\u03b5\u03b4\u03b9\u03bd\u03cc\u03c2, \u03c3\u03c7\u03b9\u03c3\u03bc\u03ad\u03bd\u03bf\u03c2 \u03c3\u03c4\u03b1 \u03b4\u03cd\u03bf, \u03c3\u03b1\u03bd \u03be\u03b5\u03c3\u03c7\u03b9\u03c3\u03bc\u03ad\u03bd\u03bf \u03b9\u03bc\u03ac\u03c4\u03b9\u03bf. \u039a\u03b9 \u03b1\u03c0\u03cc \u03c4\u03bf \u03c1\u03ae\u03b3\u03bc\u03b1 \u03c0\u03bf\u03c5 \u03ad\u03c7\u03b5\u03b9 \u03b4\u03b7\u03bc\u03b9\u03bf\u03c5\u03c1\u03b3\u03b7\u03b8\u03b5\u03af, \u03c6\u03b1\u03af\u03bd\u03b5\u03c4\u03b1\u03b9 \u03bd\u03b1 \u03b1\u03bd\u03b1\u03b4\u03cd\u03b5\u03c4\u03b1\u03b9, \u03c4\u03b7\u03bd \u03b7\u03bc\u03ad\u03c1\u03b1, \u03ba\u03b1\u03c5\u03c4\u03cc\u03c2 \u03b1\u03c4\u03bc\u03cc\u03c2, \u03b5\u03bd\u03ce \u03c4\u03b7 \u03bd\u03cd\u03c7\u03c4\u03b1 \u03be\u03b5\u03c0\u03b7\u03b4\u03ac \u03c3\u03b1\u03bd \u03b1\u03c0\u03cc \u03c7\u03ac\u03bb\u03ba\u03b9\u03bd\u03bf \u03ba\u03b1\u03bc\u03af\u03bd\u03b9 \u03c6\u03bb\u03bf\u03b3\u03ce\u03b4\u03b7\u03c2 \u03ba\u03b1\u03c0\u03bd\u03cc\u03c216<\/sup>. \u039a\u03b1\u03b9 \u03ba\u03b1\u03af\u03b5\u03b9 \u03c4\u03bf \u03c7\u03ad\u03c1\u03b9 \u03cc\u03c0\u03bf\u03b9\u03bf\u03c5 \u03c4\u03bf\u03bb\u03bc\u03ac \u03bd\u03b1 \u03c4\u03bf \u03b1\u03ba\u03bf\u03c5\u03bc\u03c0\u03ae\u03c3\u03b5\u03b9, \u03c7\u03c9\u03c1\u03af\u03c2 \u03cc\u03bc\u03c9\u03c2 \u03bd\u03b1 \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5 \u03c4\u03bf \u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03b1\u03c4\u03c1\u03ce\u03b3\u03b5\u03b9 \u03b1\u03bb\u03bb\u03ac \u03ba\u03b1\u03b9 \u03c4\u03b7\u03bd \u03c3\u03ac\u03c1\u03ba\u03b1, \u03cc\u03c0\u03c9\u03c2 \u03b8\u03b1 \u03b3\u03b9\u03bd\u03cc\u03c4\u03b1\u03bd \u03c3\u03c4\u03b7\u03bd \u03c0\u03b5\u03c1\u03af\u03c0\u03c4\u03c9\u03c3\u03b7 \u03c0\u03bf\u03c5 \u03ba\u03ac\u03c0\u03bf\u03b9\u03bf\u03c2 \u03b1\u03c0\u03bb\u03ce\u03bd\u03b5\u03b9 \u03c4\u03bf \u03c7\u03ad\u03c1\u03b9 \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5 \u03c3\u03c4\u03b7 \u03c6\u03c9\u03c4\u03b9\u03ac\u2022 \u03b5\u03af\u03bd\u03b1\u03b9 \u03cc\u03bc\u03c9\u03c2 \u03b1\u03c0\u03b5\u03b9\u03ba\u03cc\u03bd\u03b9\u03c3\u03b7 \u03ba\u03b1\u03b9 \u03c0\u03c1\u03bf\u03bf\u03af\u03bc\u03b9\u03bf, \u03bc\u03b5 \u03bc\u03b9\u03ba\u03c1\u03ae \u03bf\u03bc\u03bf\u03b9\u03cc\u03c4\u03b7\u03c4\u03b1, \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5 \u03b1\u03b9\u03c9\u03bd\u03af\u03bf\u03c5 \u03c0\u03c5\u03c1\u03cc\u03c2. \u039a\u03b1\u03b9 \u03b5\u03c5\u03c1\u03b9\u03c3\u03ba\u03cc\u03bc\u03b5\u03bd\u03bf\u03b9 \u03c3\u03b5 \u03b1\u03c0\u03bf\u03c1\u03af\u03b1 \u03bc\u03b5 \u03c4\u03bf \u03c6\u03b1\u03b9\u03bd\u03cc\u03bc\u03b5\u03bd\u03bf \u03bf\u03b9 \u03bc\u03b5\u03b3\u03b1\u03bb\u03cd\u03c4\u03b5\u03c1\u03bf\u03b9 \u03c3\u03b5 \u03b7\u03bb\u03b9\u03ba\u03af\u03b1 \u03bc\u03b5\u03c4\u03ad\u03c6\u03b5\u03c1\u03b1\u03bd \u03b1\u03c0\u03cc \u03b3\u03b5\u03bd\u03b9\u03ac \u03c3\u03b5 \u03b3\u03b5\u03bd\u03b9\u03ac, \u03bf \u03ba\u03ac\u03b8\u03b5 \u03c0\u03b1\u03c4\u03ad\u03c1\u03b1\u03c2 \u03c3\u03c4\u03bf \u03c0\u03b1\u03b9\u03b4\u03af \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5, (\u03cc\u03c0\u03c9\u03c2 \u03bc\u03b1\u03c2 \u03b4\u03b9\u03b1\u03c3\u03ce\u03b6\u03b5\u03c4\u03b1\u03b9 \u03bf \u03ac\u03b3\u03c1\u03b1\u03c6\u03bf\u03c2 \u03c0\u03bb\u03b7\u03bd \u03b1\u03bb\u03b7\u03b8\u03b9\u03bd\u03cc\u03c2 \u03c4\u03bf\u03cd\u03c4\u03bf\u03c2 \u03bb\u03cc\u03b3\u03bf\u03c2), \u03cc\u03c4\u03b9 \u03b5\u03be\u03b1\u03b9\u03c4\u03af\u03b1\u03c2 \u03c4\u03b7\u03c2 \u03b1\u03ba\u03bf\u03bb\u03b1\u03c3\u03af\u03b1\u03c2 \u03ba\u03b1\u03b9 \u03c4\u03b7\u03c2 \u03c3\u03b1\u03c1\u03ba\u03bf\u03bb\u03b1\u03b3\u03bd\u03b5\u03af\u03b1\u03c2 \u03c4\u03c9\u03bd \u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03bf\u03af\u03ba\u03c9\u03bd \u03c4\u03b7\u03c2 \u03b7 \u03b8\u03b5\u03af\u03b1 \u03b4\u03af\u03ba\u03b7 \u03ba\u03b1\u03c4\u03b5\u03b4\u03af\u03ba\u03b1\u03c3\u03b5 \u03c4\u03bf\u03cd\u03c4\u03b7 \u03c4\u03b7 \u03b3\u03b7 \u03c3\u03c4\u03bf \u03c6\u03c1\u03b9\u03ba\u03c4\u03cc \u03b1\u03c5\u03c4\u03cc \u03b8\u03ad\u03b1\u03bc\u03b1, \u03b3\u03b9\u03b1 \u03bd\u03b1 \u03b1\u03c0\u03bf\u03c4\u03c1\u03ad\u03c8\u03b5\u03b9 \u03c4\u03b7\u03bd \u03b5\u03c0\u03b9-\u03c3\u03c4\u03c1\u03bf\u03c6\u03ae \u03c4\u03bf\u03c5\u03c2 \u03c3\u03c4\u03bf \u03bc\u03ad\u03c1\u03bf\u03c2 \u03b1\u03c5\u03c4\u03cc.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Today I went back to the same sites, to see what came out.\u00a0 First I asked ChatGPT 3.5, “Can you translate something from modern Greek to English”, and when it said yes, pasted in the above text:<\/p>\n

\n

Nicholas originated from Patara, a city in the province of Lycia, which at that time (of Saint Nicholas) had several<\/span> inhabitants. However, now it resembles more of a village than a city. This is a fate suffered in various ways by cities\u2014they decline, and their inhabitants migrate\u2014due to their countless sins against God. Therefore, we understand what we commonly write, that is, cities are punished for the sins of their residents.<\/p>\n

Nearby, there is a flat place<\/span>, split in two, like a torn garment. From the rift that has been created, hot steam seems to emerge during the day, while at night it rises like fiery smoke from a bronze furnace. And it burns the hand of anyone who dares to touch it, without, however, consuming it as well as the flesh, as would happen if someone were to extend their hand into a fire. It is, however, a representation and prelude, with little resemblance, to the eternal fire.<\/p>\n

In awe of this phenomenon, the older ones passed down from generation to generation, each father to his child (as this unwritten but true account has been preserved<\/span> for us), that due to the immodesty and sensuality<\/span> of its inhabitants, divine justice condemned this land to this dreadful spectacle to prevent their return to this place.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

This is different to the output I got two days ago.\u00a0 Mostly it is very similar, and certainly impressive.\u00a0 In a couple of places, it isn’t as good.\u00a0 In a couple of places it’s a bit better.<\/p>\n

Next, I tried using Bing CoPilot “with GPT-4”:<\/p>\n

\n

3.\u00a0 Nikolaos originated from Pataras, a city in the province of Lycia, which at that time (of Saint Nicholas) had many inhabitants. Now, however, it looks more like a village than a city. And this is what happens to cities – they decline and their inhabitants emigrate – because of their countless sins against God. Therefore, we understand what we are used to writing, that is, that cities are punished for the sins of their inhabitants. There is a nearby flat place, split in two like a torn garment. And from the rift that has been created, hot steam appears during the day, while at night fiery smoke emerges like from a copper furnace. And it burns the hand of anyone who dares to touch it, but without consuming it or the flesh, as would happen if someone were to put their hand in fire. It is, however, a depiction and a prelude, with little similarity, of the eternal fire. And the older ones, puzzled by the phenomenon, passed down from generation to generation, each father to his child (as this unwritten but true story is preserved), that because of the debauchery and carnality of its inhabitants, divine justice condemned this land to this terrible spectacle, to prevent their return to this place.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

This is almost the same as I got in my first post.\u00a0 But one good feature of Bing AI is that it indicates the websites that it is using:<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

I imagine that this is concealed by other sites, in case they had to pay royalties.<\/p>\n

It does feel creepy that the same input on different days produces different output from the same site.\u00a0 I know that Google Translate could be like that.\u00a0 But even so… it feels flaky.<\/p>\n

All the same, there’s no doubt that AI is producing better results than Google Translate or DeepL.\u00a0 I do think that we then need to look up variable words and establish their meaning ourselves.<\/p>\n

Doing so could certainly be easier. Remember that I know no modern Greek at all; all of this is a way to use online tools.<\/p>\n

One bit that varies is the “flat place” or “low lying place” or “plain”.\u00a0 Looking at Google Translate, I see this preserves the footnote numbers, which helps us work out whereabout in the Greek text this is.\u00a0 It’s just after footnote 15:<\/p>\n

\n

inhabitants15. In other words, there is a plain<\/span> nearby, torn in two, like a torn garment.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

This must be “\u03c4\u03cc\u03c0\u03bf\u03c2 \u03c0\u03b5\u03b4\u03b9\u03bd\u03cc\u03c2”, “topos pedinos”.\u00a0 Even I know “topos” must be a “place”, if only thanks to Tales from Topographic Oceans<\/em>.\u00a0 So “pedinos” is our word of not-quite certain meaning.<\/p>\n

Going to Lexilogos<\/a> and copying the word, and clicking on WordReference gives us this page<\/a>.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

This does indeed actually explain the problem – plains are flat and are found in the lowlands, hence the various different meanings. I hate that this is an online-only tool – what if the web goes down? – but it’s something.<\/p>\n

Likewise I get \u03b1\u03c1\u03ba\u03b5\u03c4\u03bf\u03cd\u03c2 – “several inhabitants”?, and plug this in.\u00a0 Taking off letters from the end, it asks if I mean \u03b1\u03c1\u03ba\u03b5\u03c4\u03cc\u03c2 – I know enough Greek to agree – and tells me that it means enough, ample, plenty, sufficient.\u00a0 I.e. “lots”, which is what I would expect.\u00a0 Likewise “\u03b4\u03b9\u03b1\u03c3\u03ce\u03b6\u03b5\u03c4\u03b1\u03b9” also works, once you remove a few letters to get the base verb, meaning “save, rescue”, i.e. “preserve”.<\/p>\n

So maybe this is how we use these tools to make a translation:<\/p>\n

    \n
  1. Use Google Translate on the modern Greek to get a general idea of what each sentence means, and a few signposts so I can move around the Greek text.<\/li>\n
  2. Bang the Greek into ChatGPT to get a better translation.\u00a0 Maybe do the same with Bing AI, if it’s working.<\/li>\n
  3. Compare the three, and look for oddities.<\/li>\n
  4. Find the actual modern Greek word for each oddity, look it up in WordReference.com<\/a>, and see if this can resolve it.\u00a0 (Remembering, if using Chrome, to force it NOT to translate the page into Engish).<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n

    That has the look of a way to do the translation. It’s cumbersome.\u00a0 Any clues about Greek will help mightily.\u00a0 But it really requires very little knowledge, and you can produce a respectable translation, I think.<\/p>\n

    I will try it out with another chapter of Methodius ad Theodorum.<\/p>\n

    UPDATE (17 Jan 2024): Much more in the comments below.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    In my last two posts here and here, I looked at AI and other translations of the following passage from Ch. Stergioulis’ modern Greek translation of the “Life of St Nicholas” by Methodius, Archbishop of Constantinople (the “Methodius ad Theodorum”: 3. \u039a\u03b1\u03c4\u03b1\u03b3\u03cc\u03c4\u03b1\u03bd \u03bf \u039d\u03b9\u03ba\u03cc\u03bb\u03b1\u03bf\u03c2 \u03b1\u03c0\u03cc \u03c4\u03b1 \u03a0\u03ac\u03c4\u03b1\u03c1\u03b1, \u03c0\u03cc\u03bb\u03b7 \u03c4\u03b7\u03c2 \u03b5\u03c0\u03b1\u03c1\u03c7\u03af\u03b1\u03c2 \u03c4\u03c9\u03bd \u039b\u03c5\u03ba\u03af\u03c9\u03bd, \u03b7 \u03bf\u03c0\u03bf\u03af\u03b1 \u03b5\u03ba\u03b5\u03af\u03bd\u03b7 […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_hide_featured_image":false,"_jetpack_featured_image_duplicate_dismissed":0,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[19],"tags":[126,1125],"class_list":["post-47935","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-from-my-diary-announcements","tag-ai-translation","tag-methodius-ad-theodorum"],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/47935","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=47935"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/47935\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=47935"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=47935"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/roger-pearse.com\/weblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=47935"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}